Thursday, March 11, 2010

Frederick Bailey Deeming

I don't know who Frederick Bailey Deeming is, so I must immediately consult Lord Wiki.

Well, Lord Wiki says that Mr. Frederick Bailey Deeming was a murderer. Great. I'm not sure if I'm in the mood for a murderer post. I'm not sure what I'm in the mood for, actually. I think I'm feeling a bit exasperated right now. It's hard to explain, so I won't try....well, at least not right this minute.

Baby Frederick was born in Leicestershire on 30 July 1853. I usually don't look at Google Maps for places besides Australia; but since we're going to that area in September, maybe I should learn more about it.

We're going to be in London. Leicestershire is two hours north of that.

Lord Wiki says he heard rumors that Deeming was a difficult child. I've had some difficult children while teaching. But you know, it's hard to know what someone is talking about when they say "difficult".

To me, difficult would be a child who is frequently violent. They bite other kids. They kick their parents and teachers. And they misbehave....not just because of impulse issues, but because they like to get a rise out of people.

Other people might see a clingy child as difficult. He wants to be held too much. He won't let me out of his sight! He's two-years-old, and still doesn't sleep through the night!

And I guess that is difficult in some ways. I prefer the term high need.

Back to the violent child. In my opinion, there's a big difference between the young child who hits because he has gotten very angry and lost control, and the child who bites their friend when no one is looking....just for the fun of it. They then either refuse to admit to their crime, and/or they show no remorse. They also may fake tears in an attempt to illicit sympathy rather than punishment.

Either way though....there's no guarantee that this behavior indicates a child will grow up to be a mass murderer. And I'm guessing most children act like little demons at least a few times in their life. I know I did! My feeling is it's probably only a problem if it's frequent and continues through out childhood.

I guess we just hope that children outgrow their impulse issues, and/or their love of bullying others. But unfortunately, many don't. Then instead of biting arms and hitting people over the head with a teddy bear, you have shootings and stabbings.

I'm really rambling here. I haven't made it past the first paragraph of Lord Wiki. Let me get back to Deeming.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether his parents had any influence on what he became. I'm not one of those that believe parents are 100% responsible for how their kids come out. I think some people are born with a lot of evil, and I don't think parents can do much to change them. But then I think there are some people who would have turned out okay, if they had better parenting.

When Deeming was sixteen, he ran away. He went to sea, and Lord Wiki says he started a life of crime.

Lord Wiki's chronology here is confusing me. I'm trying to figure this all out.

Okay, he would have run away around 1869. He went to sea.

The earliest date from 1869 that I can see here is 1882. Deeming would have been about twenty-nine. Lord Wiki says this is when he moved to Australia. So from age sixteen to twenty-nine, is a least for now. I guess he was traveling the world on ships? Was he murdering people back then?

In Australia, Deeming worked in Sydney, and also Melbourne. I guess the guy didn't mind traveling. In Melbourne, he worked for a company that imported plumbing and gasfitting stuff. His employers thought highly of Deeming, and gave him money to start a business in Rockhampton Queensland.

Lord Wiki says the money was never repaid. I guess it had been a loan. So was Deeming a con artist? Well, it sounds like it...a likable guy who convinces you to hand over money, and then never returns to pay you back.

At his Sydney job, Deeming was accused of stealing. He denied the charges, but the items were later found in his home. He was sentenced to six weeks in prison, and when the sentence was announced, Deeming pretended to faint.

All of this is making me think the guy was a sociopath....the ease in lying, and the manipulative behavior. But I'm wondering if it's because I know how he turned out. I know he did much worse stuff later. What if he hadn't though? Would I see him a sociopath, or a comical anti-hero?

In 1877, Deeming was put back on trial for another crime. This one was for fraudulent insolvency. I wasn't sure what that was, so I had to look it up. Apparently, it has something to do with not paying a debt.

For this crime, Deeming escaped while on bail. Well, he fled, I suppose.

Oh wait! I found an earlier date here. 1881. Before Deeming moved to Australia, he got married in England to a girl named Marie. His brother married Marie's sister. Interesting. So I wonder if the siblings had gotten along. Were they friends? Did they both run away from their parents? Did they ever get back in touch with their parents?

Anyway, so while all these jobs and various crimes and trials were happening, Deeming was a married man with two daughters.

If I'm reading this right, it looks like Deeming and his family left Australia around 1888. Maybe when he disappeared on bail, he left the country. I guess that's a wise move if you're a criminal.

The family eventually went back to England, but before that they spent some time in South Africa. Lord Wiki says Deeming involved himself with illegal diamond stuff there. Then they took a ship back to England. The captain and fellow passengers of the Yumna remembered Deeming as a guy who flashed his wealth and gave unwanted attention to female passengers.

You know, I'm unclear about whether Deeming traveled alone, or if his family was with him. Lord Wiki is using a lot of single pronouns here, which makes me think Deeming was alone.
But where did his family go then?

In 1889, Deeming found himself in a town in England called Beverley.

I'm looking at Google Maps. It's about four hours north of London.

While in Beverley, Deeming pretended to be a sheep farmer from Rockhamptom Queensland. Well, he had lived there for awhile, so it wasn't a complete lie. He did give a false name though....Harry Lawson. I was tempted to think that Deeming had been inspired by Henry Lawson. But I'm looking at dates here. It looks like Henry Lawson's career was just starting to bloom. I'm doubting that Deeming had heard of him. Yeah, so it was probably just a coincidence.

Deeming romanced the daughter of his landlady in Beverley. They got married, and Deeming became a bigamist. I'm guessing neither wife knew about the other wife.

Deeming and and wife #2 went on a long honeymoon. Afterwards, Deeming disappeared with all the gifts he had given the bride. I wonder why he married her. Was he after something....besides sex? Could he have loved her? Are people like Deeming even capable of love?

Lord Wiki says that Deeming's first wife, and his family had heard of the second marriage. I'm not sure how they found out. Marie (wife #1) now had four children, and they were living in Birkenhead.

I'm looking at Google Maps again. While Beverly is on the east side of England, Birkenhead is on the west. They're about two hours apart from each other.

I'm wondering when Marie and the children went to Birkenhead. When did Deeming separate from them? Had they been in South Africa with him at all?

Anyway, Deeming eventually visited the family in Birkenhead. He said some hellos, gave them a little bit of money, and announced he was going to South America.

Before heading in that direction, Deeming tried to steal more He managed to get away, but got caught in Uruguay. He was sent back to England, and put on trial. His sentence was nine months in prison.

In July 1891, Deeming finished his sentence and headed to Rainhill which is near/in Liverpool. Birkenhead is near Liverpool as well. So I guess he wasn't too far from his wife and children.

Deeming used another fake name. This time he was Albert Williams.

Deeming spent some time at a hotel, and then got himself a house. He did this by saying he was leasing a house on behalf of a military friend. But then he himself moved into the house. I'm not sure why he did this. Maybe people were more open to leasing to people in the military?

Lord Wiki says Deeming was seen having visits from a woman and children. He claimed they were his sister and her kids, but people believe that it was actually his wife and children. I'm wondering how much Marie knew about her husband's crimes. Was she in on it? Did she know about it, and turn a blind eye? Or was she completely ignorant?


In Rainhill, Deeming found himself a wife #3. Her name was Emily. They got married in September 1891.

In November, Deeming and Emily headed to Australia. By December they were in Australia. I guess ships traveled pretty fast in those days. It took the First Fleet eight months to get to Australia. But maybe that's because they had longer stops?

In Melbourne, Deeming rented a house on Andrew Street, in the suburb of Windsor.

I'm looking at Google Maps again. I'm not really familar with the area. The closest name I recognize is South Yarra. That's a little bit north of Andrew Street....about a twenty minute walk.

Now I'm looking at Andrew Street on Street View. I wonder if the people who lived there know that a famous murderer lived on their street.

Oh! Not only does a murderer live there, but that's where the murder happened. Although I think there might be more than one murder.

Around Christmas time, Deeming murdered Emily and hid her body under a bedroom. Yikes. Was this planned out...premeditated? Or was it a crime of passion?

Well, from Lord Wiki says next, it sounds like it might have been planned. Deeming had paid rent ahead for the home. Then he suddenly left. Although I'm not sure how suspicious it is to pay rent ahead of time.

In 1892, a prospective renter came to the house. He complained about a smell. The owner and estate agent lifted the floor to investigate. Once the floor was removed, the smell was horrible and overpowering. I guess they had an idea of what was going on, so they called the police. The body of Emily...wife #3....was uncovered.

Investigations of Emily's body showed she had been hit in the skull several times, and her throat was cut.

The murder became pretty big in the media. Investigations began. The Age newspaper began connecting Emily's murder to the WhiteChapel murders of London. Lord Wiki says these are the murders that are often blamed on Jack the Ripper. So is Lord Wiki saying that Deeming might have been Jack the Ripper?

Well, Lord Wiki says that Deeming is one of MANY possible suspects. He says that Beeming once boasted about being Jack the Ripper; but at the time of the murders he had been in prison and/or South Africa.

The Victorian police did some detective work....trying to connect all the dots. They found out what Deeming had been doing since murdering Emily. It seems he had remained in Melbourne. He lived on Swanston Street as Mr. Duncan. That sounds familar to me. I think I've heard of it before. Is it the street with the no-car controversy?

Yeah, Lord Wiki says it is. I'm so proud of myself for remembering that!

Well, the investigators found out that after Emily had died, Deeming had wrote an affectionate letter to her mother. that like in a friendly son-in-law way, or a romantic type way? What was her mother thinking when she got the letter? Did she not think it strange to hear from her son-in-law and not her daughter?

Deeming didn't stay in Melbourne too long after his wife's murder. After trying to find a wife #4 via an agency, and doing more jewel thievery, he headed to Sydney. On the journey, he met Kate, and courted her. She agreed to marry him. Then Deeming went off to Western Australia. Kate thought she was to meet him there.

I don't understand Deeming's game plan. Did he just like collecting wives, and then killing them? I see no indication that he obtained money this way, so I don't think it was about that. It seems more like his goal was to gain wives, and having money was his way of attracting them.

Guess what happened on the ship to Western Australia?

Yep. Deeming went after yet another woman. This time he was thwarted by the woman's aunt who said, I may tell you plainly, that I don’t believe your stories and I am not in the habit of allowing men of your class to enter my family circle. What a snob! But in this case, snobbery was probably a lifesaver.

In March 1892, Deeming was found by the police. First he denied being Frederik Bailey Deeming. Then later he admitted knowing the murder victim. He said, I think I know the party who has been murdered. I don’t believe anyone would have the heart to murder a girl like that. His lies are chilling, and my keyboard has gross dirt all over it. I just noticed that.

Well, lies can usually only work for so long. Eventually, the truth is uncovered. This is especially so if you fail to cover your tracks. Let's say uh for example that you keep the dead person's stuff among your belongings.

Around the time that the police were taking Deeming and his dead wife's prayerbook back to Melbourne, more murders were uncovered.

It turns out that Deeming killed wife #1 (Marie) and their four children. He had buried them under the floor of villa he had supposedly leased for the military guy. Oh..... Remember how people had seen the woman and children, and Deeming had said they were just his sister and nieces. Well, if anyone had been watching carefully, they might have said they went in, and never came back out.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that Deeming was a sociopath. It seems like this was all a game to him. I think you'd have to be heartless or insane to kill your own children. If the wife and children were his only victims, I'd be more likely to diagnose insanity. But he just went on happily with his business....finding new wives and finding new victims.

Back to what I contemplated in the beginning. My guess is that Deeming's outcome was not the fault of his parents. My belief is that he was simply born this way....born without a conscience.

Lord Wiki says that the body of Marie and the four children were not uncovered for eight months. Deeming managed this by giving Marie's sister the idea that the family was taking a long holiday. He also prevented others from renting the house for six months, saying it had to be reserved for that military guy. This prevented people from coming in and noticing the smell, and it also gave him time to reconcrete the floors. It's interesting that he didn't do this on Andrew Street in Melbourne. Maybe in some ways, he wanted to get caught? Otherwise, couldn't he have paid rent ahead for several months, and allowed people to believe he still lived in the house?

In April 1892, Deeming went on trial in Melbourne. He tried to plead insanity...even going for the Syphilis excuse. He played the Norman Bates game....said his mother's spirit told him to do it. I guess that could be true, but I'm doubting it. I mean I don't think he was haunted by his mom's spirit, but maybe he did have hallucinations. OR maybe he was truly haunted. That would give an interesting twist to the story.

In May 1892, Deeming was hanged. He had written an autobiography while in jail, but that was destroyed. At first, I was really annoyed about that. I thought maybe I could have read the truth. But then I remembered that Deeming was a liar. There'd probably be no truths in that book.

On the Jack Ripper page, Lord Wiki says that Deeming had an alibi for the Jack the Ripper murders; but here Lord Wiki says it's not for certain. Deeming IS a possible suspect.

Now I'm going to read the Australian Dictionary of Biography. Maybe they'll tell me something that Lord Wiki didn't. They say not much is known about Deeming's childhood. He later claimed to be epileptic, and that he and his parents had spent time in asylums. His brother denies all that happened. Based on his past history of dishonesty, I'm going to guess that Deeming is the one that's not telling the truth here.

Oh wow. The website gives the exact location of the murder. It happened at 57 Andrew Street. I'm looking at Street View and can see the exact house. That's spooky. I wonder if it's haunted at all.

Holy shit. Did I miss this on Lord Wiki? Guess who one of Deeming's lawyers was?

Alfred Deakin!

I wonder if I wrote about that when I researched Deakin. If I did, I was probably less shocked than I am now. It's different reading it in passing than it is reading all the gruesome details.

This Jack the Ripper website puts the blame of Deeming's behavior on his relationship with his mother, and a brain fever. They say mother and child were unusually close, and when she died, he went a bit nuts. According to the site, his mother died in 1873. Both Lord Wiki and the Australian dictionary of biography say Deeming had run away when he was sixteen. If he was so close to his mother, why would he have fled?

The brain fever supposedly happened while Deeming was on a ship.

It could all be true. But I'm leaning toward it NOT being true, and Deeming later inventing the story to attract sympathy....and a lighter sentence.

This Victorian government site has a whole section on Deeming. I guess I'll do some exploring.

On this page, you can click on Deeming's death mask to read various parts of his story. People sure are creative with multimedia these days.

This website provides a LOT of details. It's like going to a museum. I suggest those interested should come to the website themselves, but I shall report a few things here.

Ah. Here's something. On the day, they moved their belongings to Andrew Street, Deeming went out to purchase cement, tools, and a pan. I'm guessing her could have had other plans besides murder, but I seriously doubt it.

A woman named Louisa Atkinson was the last person to see Emily alive. On Christmas eve, she heard Emily and Mr. Murder arguing. Then she saw Emily pacing outside on a path. I guess the fighting had been quite dramatic. Atkinson says she advised Emily to leave the place. Emily had assured her she was fine.

This page of the site has a photograph of the house. I'm trying to determine if the house is the same as the one that's still at 57 Andrew Street. I'm not really good with these comparisons. I see some differences. So at the very least, there's been some renovations.

Yuck. The website gives some very gruesome details about the recovery of the body. I won't share them. If you're interested, you can read them here.

This page talks about Kate Rounsefell, the woman Deeming romanced after killing Emily. The poor woman received a telegraph from her sister telling her that she should not proceed with the romance. Rounsefell was confused, and planned to contact her sister for more information. She didn't need to go that far though. While walking, she saw people gathered at a newspaper office. They were discussing the murders, and Rounsefell found out her fiance was the suspect.

Here's a page about the Jack the Ripper suspicions. They say the public might have made the link because they didn't want to imagine there could be TWO serial killers out there. Yeah. That makes sense. On this page, they talk about how good Deeming was at doing his thing. He was a deviant master of disguise. He was also a womanizer. He managed to get several women to agree to marrying him. All this makes me seriously doubt his insanity plea. Can a crazy person be so successful at charming women? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a person with a brain disease would ACT like a person with a brain disease. They'd probably be creepy and suspicious. Their behavior would look disturbing.

Well, here we go. This page talks about the insanity thing. They say the opinion over whether Deeming was a victim of insanity was split among the medical and legal people.

Medical examinations were done to find signs of Syphilis. His eyes were looked at for symptoms. When he was arrested, Deeming started wearing glasses. The website says there was no indication however that he actually needed them. He might have been wearing them to give people the idea that he had eyesight issues.

One medical officer said that Deeming had low moral standards, but he was not insane. I think I'd agree with that guy.

Another doctor spent time with Deeming, and spoke in his defense at the trial. The story Deeming gave to him was that

a) he talked to his dead mother everyday at 2 am, and she encouraged him to kill women.
b) both of his parents spent time in mental asylums, and his mother died in one
c) one his brothers was in a mental asylum
d) His father was abusive
e) His sister became pregnant with their father's child
f) Deeming doesn't remember anything from before the age of twelve

That could be all true. I doubt it, but it's possible, I suppose. It's still not an excuse for being a serial killer. I'm sure many kids grow up with mentally ill parents, and turn out to be decent human beings. If anything, I think they'd turn out to be one of those people you see on the street...screaming out scary bits of nonsense. I doubt they'd turn into a smooth-talking killer. But I could be wrong.

Wow. This website has tons of resources. It's overwhelming.

I want to quit soon, but I'll quickly see if there's anything that jumps out at me.

They have the whole trial on a PDF file. I'm tempted to read it, but I'm too tired.

Oh wow. This newspaper article has the letter that Deeming wrote to Emily's mother. It's very friendly and chatty. He doesn't explain why he's writing, and not Emily. One possibility is that Emily couldn't write? Maybe he usually did all the writing, and that's why it wouldn't look suspicious.

He says they had a happy Christmas.

Now there IS another possibility. My gut instinct says no, but I guess it's worth exploring. Maybe Deeming had a dissociative personality disorder? Maybe one personality killed Emily, and another believed she was still happy and alive.

But no....I really don't think so. He lies. He murdered Emily, and then wrote this cheerful letter saying they had a happy Christmas. I think someone with a multiple personality would be confused. I think they'd avoid contacting Emily's parents. But I think a sociopath would have fun writing to the parents. There'd be a thrill to it all. Ha ha. They think I'm such a nice guy, and meanwhile their daughter's body is under the floor.

Lord Wiki has an entry on the psychopath. I guess that's the correct term rather than sociopath? Or are they two different things?

Oh okay. Lord Wiki explains it here, or at least one explanation. A behavorial geneticist named David Lykken says psychopaths are the ones that are born that way. Sociopaths turn evil from stuff that has happened during their childhood. They both would be classified as having an antisocial behavorial disorder.

Lord Wiki lists some of the traits of the sociopath:

Superficial charm
Grandoise sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Lack of empathy
Failure to take responsibility for actions.

Yeah. To me, this fits Deeming very well.

There's more. I'm not going to list all of them. But one of the traits is having many short term marital relationships.

One of the saddest things about all of this is that so far no effective treatments have been found.

Lord Wiki says that it's believed that therapy might actually help the psychopath become even more manipulative. So that's a lost cause.

How common is this disorder?

Lord Wiki says it's believed to be in 1% of the population. Here we are freaking out about 1 in 110 children being born autistic. The other day I was talking to a pregnant mother who looked absolutely horrified about the prospect of having an autistic child. We don't want our babies on the SPECTRUM!

Jack seems to be on the spectrum. He's a bit weird sometimes. I think I'm probably on the spectrum as well. My feeling is we're in good company. Temple Grandin is there, and so is Steven Spielberg.

Yeah. There are severe cases of Autism, and it's really tragic. Children are closed off in their own little words. But I think many other people with autism are totally fine. So they talk a bit funny and spin around the room? Jack went through a stage of flapping his arms when excited. It looked a bit autistic. His cousin told Jack that he should stop. She said her mother (my sister) had told her this was wrong. I guess she had copied the behavior, and the parents felt this needed to be nipped in the bud.

I never tried to get Jack to stop flapping his arms. To me, it's not a problem. In fact, I liked it. It was an easy way for me to see that Jack was excited....kind of like a dog wagging its tale.

I definitely think severe autism is something to worry about...and we need to keep working on finding therapies and treatments. But I think in terms of milder forms of Autism, we should probably learn to accept them rather than try to change them. And maybe we need to focus more of our worries on all the psychopaths out there.

Now one in a hundred babies aren't going to be turn into serial killers like Frederick Deeming. If that was the case, Mother Nature wouldn't need to use earthquakes and droughts as population control.

But these psychopaths may be why so many of us can say that we've been bullied in the past.

The thing is we're all mean to each other at times.

Sometimes we're in a bad mood, and we lash out at people.

Sometimes we insult someone because we want them to stop feeling superior to us.

Sometimes we're just in a feisty mood. We say something mean as a test. What will her reaction be if I say that?

Sometimes we say something mean to test the relationship. Will she still love me, if I say that to her?

But I think the difference between psychopaths and nonpsychopaths is that nonpsychopaths usually feel remorse and regret....even if they are reluctant to express it.

The psychopath will hurt you. You can try to reason with them. You can plead with them. You can beg them to understand...appeal to their empathy. Nothing will work. The abuse will continue until you manage to escape. Then what's even worse is that the abuse won't necessarily come from the psychopath alone. Since they're good at being charming, they'll be able to get others to take their side. They'll gang up against you. And since you now stand alone (or almost alone) against many, you're likely to conclude that they're right and you're wrong. Really. If you didn't deserve this hateful behavior, why would people be turning against you like that? And why are those other people just sitting quietly? Why aren't they defending you? Yeah. It must be that you deserve this.

1 in 100 people are psychopaths.

How many out of 100 people are willing to be the sidekicks of the charming psychopath? And how many out of 100 people know it's all wrong, but they're too scared to speak up?

It's all very scary and depressing to me.

I think many things need to be done:

1. We need to be more educated about psychopaths....learn about them before we become their victims.

2. Encourage children and adults to NOT join the psychopath's bandwagon.

3. Find ways to identify children who might have this disorder (which has been done to some extent) and perhaps find treatments and effective therapies.

They say if you catch autism early enough, autistic children can have a more favorable outcome. Maybe the same goes for psychopathic children. Perhaps by the time they're torturing cats and setting fires, it's already too late.


I really don't know.

It's scary.

It's sad.

For those of us who are NOT psychopaths, maybe the best thing we can do is be extra nice and compassionate....make up for those in the world who lack these important attributes. I think a lot of people are unfortunately in the middle. They're not cruel psychopaths, but they're not particularly kindhearted either. In order to counteract the actions of the psychopath, the rest of us need to be more in tune with our empathy so we can understand which is the right path. And we need courage to be able to take this path.

I guess what I'm trying to say is for now there's really no way to rid the world of this psychopathic disorder. We can't save THEM at this point. But I think we can help protect ourselves and our friends and family from being their victims.

P.S-After writing this whole post, I was obsessing a bit and went to do even more research...extracurricular, I suppose. I found this article on msnbc about psychopathic children, and whether there's anything that can be done about them. They interviewed people who said that for psychopathic children, it's not necessarily hopeless. The article says, While it might not be possible to help people develop a conscience, perhaps they can be convinced that it’s in their best interest to act as if they do.

A bit chilling, but I guess it makes sense. The question is this though. Do lawful and well-behaving citizens get more benefits out of life than those who lie, manipulate, cheat, and hurt others? And we have to exclude that sick sad feeling we get when we've wronged others....well, since psychopaths don't have that.


  1. Another interesting one who I knew nothing about. Of course I know where Andrew Street is.

  2. Andrew,

    It's a fascinating...but gruesome...story.

    Maybe it's one they don't talk about on the tours. Although the Victorian government does have that massive website on it.

  3. When I first read this it triggered a memory that Deeming had some connection with Kalgoorlie, where I used to live.

    It took me a while to find it, but he was arrested at the WA Goldfields town of Southern Cross on March 11, 1892.

    On the way to Perth, news of the Rainhill murders reached Australia.

    "The closer the train got to the Western Australian capital the larger the angry crowds that gathered at stations to vent their outrage."

  4. Michael,

    Yeah. I read that. I'm sorry I didn't mention it. I think I probably meant to, but was probably overwhelmed with information...or something.

    I think maybe Deeming met Kate Rounsefell on the way to Western Australia. ???? Or he met her, and then went to Western Australia, and she was supposed to meet him there. I forget.... Was it in Western Australia that she read about his arrest? Now I have to go back and read....

  5. Please don't apologise, this was an incredibly thorough post. It triggered my curiosity.

  6. I made some comparisons between the 1892 photo of the 57 Andrew St house on the government website and google streetview. I am fully convinced that it is still the same house (e.g. shape of the roof, shape, position and number of chimneys, the awning and its pillars, etc...). Most different is the fence which was obviously completely renewed. Wonder if the people living there today know about the history of their home... And how the room where the body was found looks today...

  7. Jahn,

    Hi! It's an interesting question. I also am wondering if the owners know the history.

    My guess is...they would.

    Then the next question is: Do they care? Does it bother them? Or do they like having a house with a dark history?

    I wonder if the house has ever been sold at a low price because of the history.